An Answer To A Lame Argument

By 

Jeff Paton

I have the unnamed author's statements in RED.

And my answers in BLUE.

Here is the dialog and argument...

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you. 

1. Do something that causes you to lose it. Now, I don’t know what that "something" could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it. Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

I suggest that you should look again at the writings of the Paul...  this time with your eyes open!

Paul tells us how!

If we DEFILE THE TEMPLE, THE BODY, HE WILL DESTROY US! (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19-20; Heb. 12:15).

If we OBEY SIN we will DIE spiritually! (Romans 6:16-23).

By NOT ABIDING IN THE FAITH we shall be cut off! (Romans 11:11-32).

By being REMOVED FROM Christ! (Gal. 1:6-7).

By becoming ENTANGLED AGAIN with the yoke of bondage! (Gal. 5:1).

By FALLING FROM GRACE! (Gal. 5:4). CHRIST BECOMES OF NO EFFECT FOR US!

By WALKING AFTER THE FLESH and not the Spirit! (Romans 8:1; 8:4; 8:12-13; Gal. 5:10, 20).

By not keeping your body under and becoming a CASTAWAY. (1 Cor. 9:27).

By ERRING FROM THE FAITH. (1 Tim. 6:9-10, 21).

By DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH! (1 Tim. 4:1).

By having your faith OVERTHROWN! (2 Tim. 2:17-18).

By CASTING OFF your faith! (1 Tim. 5:11-15; 6:19-21; 2 Tim. 2:17;, 18; 4:10).

If we DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US! (2 Tim. 2:12).

I have tried to give a good spread of Paul’s doctrine concerning the matter. I limited it to Paul since that is what our author wished to do. It is pretty obvious that Paul certainly spent some time explaining it! Unfortunately, people like our author will expend the vast wealth of their efforts in getting people to disbelieve it! Quite a shame. In addition to this, at least one hundred more passages can be appealed to if we broaden the scope to accept all of Scripture!

 2. Undo all that God did at your salvation. See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them. OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!! 

1) Get God to un-forgive you –– Eph. 1:7

God does not un-forgive anybody. He also does not forgive anybody for sins not yet committed. "If" any man sin, he is in need of an Advocate (1 John 2:1-2). If one fails to seek reconciliation with God after they have sinned, and continues in that sin unrepentant, there remains no more sacrifice for their sins (Heb. 10:26; 1 Jn. 1:9). God does not "un-forgive" anything. It is our failure to receive forgiveness by refusing to turn to God for that forgiveness. 

2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24

The redemption is for past sins only (3:25). Upon the condition of believing, (v.26), and faith, (v.28). If you refuse to lay hold of redemption through belief and faith, by rejecting it through unbelief and lack of faith; it is not God who "un-redeems" you, but your rejection of that redemption. 

3) Get God to un-circumcise you –– Col. 2:13

"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith" (Romans 3:30). For without faith it is impossible to please Him (Heb.11:6). "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision" (Rom. 2:25). 

Our writer fails to read the exhortation in its context. Colossians chapter Two, precedes these words on circumcision with the following: "And this I say, lest any man beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:4-5, 8). Paul commends them for their steadfastness in the faith, and with that commendation, he gives these stable believers a warning not to be "beguiled" by enticing words. He further emphasizes this warning by not to be "spoiled" through philosophy and vain deceit. His confidence that he states following this portion of the argument that he makes is of a positive tone, which is based upon their track record of steadfastness. It is an impossible hermeneutic to apply these positive statements to those that fail to heed his aforementioned warnings. Circumcision spoken of here is spiritual, not a physical act which cannot be undone. Man chooses to disavow their spiritual circumcision if they refuse to walk in faith (1 Jn. 1:7). 

4) Get God to un-adopt you –– Rom. 8:15

This appeal to adoption ignores not only the context, but the fact that this is a spiritual adoption which is obtained though faith. Those that are adopted must meet the preceding conditions: "For if ye live by the flesh, ye shall die: but is through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13).

5) Get God to un-seat you –– Eph. 2:6

The "us" that Paul speaks of as being seated in heavenly places is the Church. People are seated there as long as they are connected with the Body of Faith. "For by grace are we saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). This without a doubt implies the condition in which one is translated into this high position. "Through faith," it is acquired, "through faith" we are kept in place (1 Peter 1:5). We stay there as long as we do not make shipwreck of that faith (1 Tim. 1:19), or have slipped away from that faith (Heb.2:1-3). We can lose our faith, and our position of being seated in heavenly places by being deceived by sin and departing from God (Heb. 3:12-13). 

6) Get God to un-sanctify you –– I Cor. 6:11

One "un-sanctifies" themselves, through persistent sinning and unrepentance (Heb. 10:26). They are no longer set aside for a holy purpose, for it is said... "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, ‘Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.’ And again, ‘The Lord shall judge his people.’ 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' (Heb. 10:29, 30). 

7) Get God to un-glorify you –– Rom. 8:30

Romans 8:28-39, speaks of a universal chain and promise to a category of persons. The "us" and "those" within the passage refers to the Church. One receives these promises in and only when they remain as part of the Body, the Church. The Church is truly called, predestinated, justified, and glorified in the mind of God. The characteristic if one who is part of this Church is that they love God, (v. 28), there lives are conformed to the image of the Son in holiness, (29), they are "more than conquerors" in their faith (V.37). You see, the one that is already considered as glorified in the mind of God are those who are here and now conformed to the image of the Son. That is because they "love God." And through this love and conforming to holiness, they are "more than conquerors." The current "standing" of already being glorified is contingent upon these things. You choose to reject this present "glorification" if you do not meet God’s criteria. 

8) Get God to un-seal you –– Eph. 1:13

We are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." Notice that the Holy Spirit Himself is the "Seal." We are however warned that we should not "grieve" the Holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed (4:30). If you grieve the Spirit, there is a danger. If there were no danger, God would not have warned us not to grieve the Spirit. "But the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ... so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8: 4-8). If one continues in sin, they cannot be at the same time in the Spirit. If the Spirit is not in them, He has been grieved, and does not seal them (1 Jn. 3:6-8). It is utterly impossible to be carnally minded and sealed with the Spirit at the same time. You refuse the Spirit which is the Seal, and YOU forfeit the seal.

9) Get God to un-justify you –– Rom. 3:24; 8:30

Romans 3:26, "I declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Our author has to reconcile the impossible, which is, that faith and belief are compatible with sin. The Bible is a book against sin. The purpose and atonement of Christ is to save us from sin (Matt. 1:21; 1 Jn. 3:6-9). One is only justified as long as they are believing with faith. God demands a present tense faith; Having a past faith will not save you. Only those that abide in Christ will be saved (Jn.15:1-6). Everything is contingent upon present faith. That is the fact of both Scripture and logic. 

10) Get God to un-bless you –– Eph. 1:3

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." The blessing is clearly contingent upon our union with Christ. Only those that are "in" Christ are recipients of the blessing. One must however, "remain" in Christ, and "abide" in Him, to be in Him (Jn. 6:27; 8:31; 15:1-11; Acts. 13:43; 14:22; Rom. 2:7, 6:1; 11:23; Gal. 2:5; 3:10; Col. 1:23; 1 Tim. 2:15; 4:16; 2 Tim. 2:3; Heb. 12:7; James 5:11; 1 John 2:6; 2:10; 2:24; 2:27, 28; 3:6; 3:14; 3:24; 2 John 1:9). One must rewrite the Bible to avoid the necessity of remaining, continuing, and abiding in Christ for salvation. 

11) Get God to un-bury you –– Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12

Logically, we must see that if we do not remain in the faith, our past faithfulness will not avail us any benefit (Ezek. 18:4, 24-32; 33:11-20). If you wish to dig up your old life, that is within your power to do so.

12) Get God to un-raise you –– Eph. 2:6

It is truly grace to be elevated to such a high position. But this grace is only "through faith" and nowhere else (Eph. 2:8). God does not "un-raise you." If one loses their faith, they sink by the gravity of their own sins from this elevated position. God forces no one to believe! God forces no one to continue in the faith. 

13) Get God to un-quicken you –– Eph. 2:1 

Romans 6:23, 'The wages of sin is death...' Being "quickened" is being brought to spiritual life. To Christians, Paul writes, "Know ye not, that whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?" One is not "un-quickened" just as one is not "un-birthed..."  they DIE! The creation of non-existent terminology in an effort to make another's position to appear ignorant, is a distraction, and only reveals the faulty thinking of the accuser in the matter. 

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, (Luke 15), we see that the son willingly left the Father, and the Father did not stop him. While the Father rushed out to meet him upon his humble return, it is stated, "For this my son was DEAD, and alive again; he was lost (he became that way on his own,) and is found." If the son left the Father and continued wallowing with the pigs, the Father would not have dragged him home. Notice that he was a son before he left! He was pronounced alive again!  Indicating life before he left! Upon his willful departure, he was considered "dead" and "lost" until his humble return. Christians can sin and die spiritually. It is our choice if we lose the life we were quickened with.

14) Get God to take Christ out of you –– Col. 1:27

God does not take Christ out of us; we kick Him out! (Jn. 15:1-11, Jude 21). It took faith to let Him in, and it takes unbelief to push Him out. If you refuse to abide "in" Christ, you will be cast forth and burned!  

15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body –– Eph. 5:30

You were at one time not part of His Body, and while the Body may miss you, it will get along just fine as it did without you before you were part of the Body. God does not go around with a cancer-ridden Body. One who claims to be in the Body when they are not, is the cancer that has always plagued the Church. The poet Southey said, "I could believe in Christ if he did not drag behind him his leprous bride, the Church." Suggesting that your departure from the Body would harm the Body is overestimating your value and contribution to the whole!

Now, you see how simple that was –– if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again. Then when you "repent" and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again. Then when you "sin it away" again then you can undo it all over again! My what a life! About as confusing as a termite in a yo-yo! Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) –– Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Yes, our author has taken the black marker of dispensationalism, and used it freely to blot out all passages that God has placed at our disposal for edification and instruction in righteousness. He has decided that he will only believe what he wishes to believe, and will ignore the relevance of the Scriptures. He is truly one of those that Peter wrote of, "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness" (2 Peter 3:17). 

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen. Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity –– glory!!!

But even if you do, he will not listen! He has taken a black marker to his Bible so it cannot disagree with him!

For those of you that wish to look at some of these reasons, you can look here.

 200 Reasons You Shouldn’t Believe Eternal Security

Hold On!

Notice that not one time in this whole line of argumentation does the author produce a singular Scripture that proves his presupposition. No matter how impossible or foolish they can make an opposing doctrine look, Scripture doctrine cannot be proved without finding it in Scripture! I can argue that not believing in Santa Claus would result in, lower spending at Christmas, unemployment of store workers, profit loss in movies, the disappointed children, and the financial losses suffered upon the whole economy. These things would be unthinkable to the economists that wish to promote these things, yet, the fact that some may find their comfort in Santa Claus, does not prove in any way that there is a Santa Claus! Just because we do not like the possible consequences that a certain doctrine may lead us to, it is a foolish reason to reject it. Truth is truth, and it does not need our permission to be true! And it will remain true whether we reject it or write it out of our Bibles.  

There is no unconditional Eternal Security to be found in the Scriptures; that's a fact. There are a lot of clever evasions that they can come up with, but this is where creativity and truth part ways. 

My friend, believe the Scriptures, shun sin and abide in Christ! Cast your faith upon Him and His power to save! Find your security in Christ! Not upon the fantasies and the selective Scripture reading of individuals that choose to have more faith in their own private doctrine than they do the Bible!  

ETERNAL SECURITY